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Journalist Virginia Sole-Smith joins us to discuss how GLP-1 hype has changed the conversation about diet culture, the importance of body autonomy, how “bro” diet culture became public policy, how she handles haters, the “fed is best” approach to parenting, and lots more. Behind the paywall, she shares her experience of weighing herself for the first time in years, what it’s been like to date for the first time in a larger body, how she’s changed her relationship to cardio, and more.
As a journalist, Virginia Sole-Smith has reported from kitchen tables, graduated from beauty school, and gone swimming in a mermaid’s tail. Virginia's latest book, Fat Talk: Parenting in the Age of Diet Culture, is a New York Times bestseller that investigates how the "war on childhood obesity" has caused kids to absorb a daily onslaught of body shame from peers, school, diet culture, and families—and offers research-based strategies to help parents name and navigate the anti-fat bias that infiltrates our schools, doctor’s offices and dinner tables.
Virginia began her career in women’s magazines, alternatively challenging beauty standards and gender norms, and upholding diet culture through her health, nutrition and fitness reporting. This work led to her first book, The Eating Instinct: Food Culture, Body Image and Guilt in America, in which Virginia explored how we can reconnect to our bodies in a culture that’s constantly giving us so many mixed messages about both those things.
Virginia’s work appears in the New York Times Magazine, Scientific American, and many other publications. She writes the newsletter Burnt Toast, where she explores anti-fat bias, diet culture, parenting and health, and also hosts the Burnt Toast Podcast. Virginia lives in New York’s Hudson Valley with her two kids, two cats, a dog, and way too many houseplants..
Resources and References
Contains affiliate links to Bookshop.org, where I earn a small commission for any purchases made.
Christy’s second book, The Wellness Trap: Break Free from Diet Culture, Disinformation, and Dubious Diagnoses and Find Your True Well-Being
Subscribe on Substack for extended interviews and more
Virginia’s latest book, Fat Talk: Parenting in the Age of Diet Culture
Virginia’s first book, The Eating Instinct: Food Culture, Body Image and Guilt in America,
Virginia’s Substack newsletter, Burnt Toast
Christy’s online course, Intuitive Eating Fundamentals
Transcript
Disclaimer: The below transcription is primarily rendered by AI, so errors may have occurred. The original audio file is available above.
Christy Harrison: Here's my conversation with Virginia Sole-Smith. I am really excited to talk with you about your new edition of your book. That came out earlier this year, but it's the second edition and so I want to get into all the ways that it's changed and sort of what you've learned since the book first came out in early 2023. First, I want to talk about life in general and how that has changed since the last time you were on the pod, since you wrote the book. That was published in early 2023, and this is now early to mid-2025 by the time this is coming out. So a lot has happened.
Virginia Sole-Smith: A lot has happened. Yeah. So, I mean, personally, my life evolved a lot. I got divorced. I've got two kids. I live in the Hudson Valley. Most of that was all very good change, but it was certainly consuming for a while. My day job is running Burnt Toast, the newsletter and podcast, which we have continued to evolve and grow in some cool new directions. There's this book which is this huge part of my heart and really the cornerstone of all the work I do, which came out in April 2023, sort of right at the start of the Ozempic-Palooza explosion. And here we are about two years later. It came out in paperback earlier this year. And it does feel like in some ways it's still the same conversation, but we're having it in a very different landscape.
Christy Harrison: Completely. How has Ozempic changed how you talk about this book, how people are receiving this book?
Virginia Sole-Smith: I think what Ozempic has mostly done is let people say the quiet part out loud a little more. It has allowed people who were previously at least giving lip service to the idea that we maybe should examine the goal of intentional weight loss and the goal of pursuing thinness. It has given people more space to say, no, that is what I really want and here's the thing that's going to get me there. And I'm painting with a broad brush, obviously. I'm thinking specifically in that sense, I see it with a lot of folks who already have a fair degree of thin privilege who aren't living with the really large impact of anti fatness. I mean, of course it impacts all of us, but they're insulated from a lot of it, and yet this is now putting within reach, another level of thin privilege for them. And that feels exciting and understandably so in the culture that we live in that encourages us all to pursue that.
I've had the unsettling experience of colleagues, people in my own life, readers across the board, people who I was like, oh, I thought we were having the same conversation, and now you're having a very different one. And that I hear from readers as well, that's happening a lot. Suddenly their sister is doing it or their mom is doing it, and they were like, I thought we were kind of doing something else here. And so there's a very disorienting quality to those experiences.
I mean, on the other hand, Ozempic is a wonderful diabetes medication. So there's also lots of folks in this complicated space of, "This medication offers me real health benefits. It is valuable to me to be on it for those real health benefits. It may or may not also lead to body changes. What do I do with the part of my brain that is still attracted to those body changes, even though I did all this work accepting my body being larger or being at the size it was?" And so I see folks really grappling with that. That's a really complicated intersection of things.
I'm super proud of Fat Talk. I'm super proud of the work I've done in that space. I do think I would do some things a little bit differently if I were writing the book today, make a little more space for the folks in that messy middle space. Because previously it was much easier to draw some lines around, like, the weight health conversation is very murky. The research isn't as clear as we certainly the pro-obesity researchers have wanted us to think and the weight loss industry has wanted us to think, like thin does not always equal health. You could talk about all that very straightforwardly. And a logical conclusion was don't pursue weight loss, it won't promote your health.
And then Ozempic does complicate it because it's like, well, here's this drug that has these health benefits for folks and may also cause weight loss. We don't know that the weight loss is the reason it manages people's blood sugar. That's still not clear, but it's squishier. How do we hold together this idea that it may offer real health benefits for folks and there may also be some body changes? It's tough. It's a lot.
Christy Harrison: It is. I recently talked to Amanda Martinez Beck for the podcast about her experience of Ozempic and how it was not the miracle weight loss drug it's built to be for her, and yet how it's also really effective at managing diabetes. And she talked about how for her tracking blood sugar in a daily way is really triggering and wasn't something that she wanted to do and was not helpful for eating disorder recovery. So being able to measure A1C over three months and then take Ozempic, that had a more long term stabilizing effect where she didn't have to worry so much about the daily numbers was really helpful for her.
She said that she was afraid to come out about that and to say to her followers that she was on it because there is such a black and white way that people see it. I'm curious how you've seen that play out in your space. People who are taking these drugs for the health benefits, for blood sugar management. And then also now there's research being done by the pharmaceutical companies, so I'm not sure how much I trust it, that is purporting that it has benefits for all kinds of other health conditions as well, cardiovascular disease, kidney issues and stuff. Which is ironic because the warning labels for Ozempic also say that it could be associated with some kidney problems. But it's interesting and squishy what actual health benefits it might have beyond blood sugar management.
It's such a complicated discourse, right? Because there is a desire I think in fat liberation spaces to hold the line and to be like, no, this is not liberatory. This is something that's actually contributing to weight stigma and we don't want to support this. And yet at the same time, the need to support body autonomy and people's ability to do what's right for their bodies or what they want. And for some people there is this necessity for blood sugar management or perhaps a desire to use it for other health related reasons and/or weight loss and so it can be hard to talk about it without alienating one side or the other.
Virginia Sole-Smith: You said it exactly. It's a complicated discourse and I feel like in Burnt Toast, I work very hard to foster a lot of community discussion and supportive discourse around these things. But we've had some hard moments in the comment section where folks feel like they aren't being validated or seen because of their personal health choices. And that has been instructive for me because the fundamental thing we're all fighting for is body autonomy. And so that means everybody gets to make their own health choices. On a larger scale, that is what we're fighting for right now around reproductive justice, around trans rights. Everybody needs to be able to make their own choices for their bodies. And I can't stand for that on some things and then be like, but not when it comes to intentional weight loss. Like, no, of course not. It's all of a piece.
And at the same time, intentional weight loss can be extremely damaging when folks experience it and it triggers disordered eating or it can be a stepping stone towards eating disorders or relapse, all of that. So it is quite complicated. And I guess I feel like where I really sit with it now is I want to keep naming how anti-fatness is driving this conversation. I want to keep naming how it shows up. For example, just the fact that these drugs are getting so much more research into all of their potential health, all the other applications they may have. That's wonderful. That may lead to real tools for people managing lots of health conditions that haven't had enough tools.
And if this drug didn't cause weight loss, I don't think they'd be researching it like that. They would not be like, oh, can we use it for this? Can we use it for that? Like, no, of course not. It's getting all of this because they've realized the power of it as a weight loss drug. And that just is a fundamental problem with it. But that doesn't mean it's not the right choice for somebody to take it to manage their health or even that it's not the right choice for somebody to choose intentional weight loss for themselves. And that's definitely, I would say, an evolution I've had over the last few years to be able to say that. And there are certainly folks in the fat liberation community who would disagree with that and I think there are folks who would say I'm not going far enough. And that's kind of the road I always walk in these conversations.
Christy Harrison: Yeah, it is a tough line because there are people who want you to be very hard line about it and who need that in a way. I know for myself too, I've always been in a thinner body, so I've never dealt with external weight stigma. But just to hear the messages of anti-diet, weight inclusivity, fat liberation from people who were very clear and hardlined about it, was helpful for me in learning to relate to my own body differently, learning to practice differently as a dietitian, learning to speak and write differently about these things as a journalist. It was helpful to have that sort of black and whiteness in a way, in the early stages of learning about it. And then the nuances, I think, have become more important to me and to many of the people I work with as well over time, as they step more fully into this space, I guess.
Virginia Sole-Smith: I think there's a parallel in the way I thought about parenting before I had kids and how I think about it almost 12 years into having kids. I think sometimes just living in our bodies, living through various things, you just start to see we just need a lot more nuance. We just need a lot more gray space to be able to own our own choices, make our own decisions. And we can do all of that on a personal level and keep fighting against the larger oppression and we can hold those things together. And I think it doesn't always feel that way.
And I think for someone new to all this work, for someone in early stages of recovery, absolutely, be in that more firm space. I would still say dieting is never helpful. I think I'm going to stay there. But that intentional weight loss is never helpful, that's true for, I think, the vast majority of people that specifically focusing on intentional weight loss as a goal for improving health and happiness is pretty much always going to underserve us. But having that happen as a byproduct or a side effect of managing your health in some other way, that's a different conversation and we need to have space for that.
Christy Harrison: Yeah, absolutely. Let's talk about the response to this book because it's been, by all accounts, a huge success. It has really helped move the conversation about intentional weight loss and anti-fat bias and all that into the fore. What's that been like for you? And how has that changed as well since the book was first published?
Virginia Sole-Smith: I feel hugely honored that I was able to contribute to this work in really any small way. It's incredible to feel that therapists use it, that teachers are finding it, that parents are finding it. The people without kids are saying it helps them work through stuff from their childhood. Those emails and messages, I don't really have words for what that feels like to have contributed and to help people. I think for me, something that has changed along with what we were just talking about of the increasing nuance.
And to be clear, when I talk about that, I'm almost underselling Fat Talk. Fat Talk has a lot of nuance in it. It's a safe book to read, even if you're going to take Ozempic for your diabetes. I don't think you'll read it and feel like I shamed you about that choice. But when I was researching the book, that wasn't the conversation we were in. So it's not explicitly in there.
But I think along with that piece, I've also started to realize how important it is to give people who maybe wouldn't be the target audience for this book to give them more language around this. And in one case, one audience I think about a lot is younger kids. I have a middle schooler now. And so thinking about how weight and food are being taught at the middle school level. Even though I had a whole chapter on schools, I've interviewed lots of teachers, I hear from parents all the time about this, I was still really unsettled when my kid came home and reported different assignments that they'd gotten in class about weight and health. And I was like, oh, the gym teacher is still telling them that boys can eat a full bagel and girls can only eat half a bagel.
Christy Harrison: Oh my God.
Virginia Sole-Smith: What? And I live in a small town. I'm kind of well known around here. I just thought, we still have a lot of work to do. Not to toot my own horn.
Christy Harrison: You're kind of a fixture around there.
Virginia Sole-Smith: Yeah. But I'm not in with the gym teachers. It's fine.
Christy Harrison: Right, Right.
Virginia Sole-Smith: But then that made me really reflect on, in this particular case, the gym teachers at our school district all happen to be men, and that's a whole demographic. There's a chapter on dads in the book. I have thought a lot about how men interact with diet culture and anti-fatness, but I don't think we have figured out how to directly engage men on this at all. And I don't think I'm the person to do it. There needs to be a male me or I don't know.
Christy Harrison: A former biohacker or something like that. I don't know.
Virginia Sole-Smith: Yeah, And I've been thinking about that more and more as we see RFK imploding public health, as we see Dr. Oz getting confirmed. This bro diet culture of hacking and macros and the Huberman bro stuff. All of that, that is now public policy. And so the way the patriarchy has been able to profit off diet culture, use diet culture to disseminate messaging, all of that, oh, man, we are really not chipping away at that. The only people who have been doing this work, painting with a broad brush, has mostly been women, non-binary, gender, non-conforming folks doing this work. Cis men are not there. And we are seeing the real dangerous consequences of that.
Christy Harrison: Yeah, It's interesting in this space that I'm in now, this sort of science communication critique of wellness culture, skeptical space, I've seen a lot of men in this space, male science communicators, male scientists or male doctors doing this science communication debunking. And a lot of times, with many exceptions people have had on the podcast, but a lot of times the sort of approach to it in those traditionally more male dominated spaces can be very like, "We're taking this down, we're debunking. This is bullshit. How could you possibly believe this?"
And I think we may have talked about this before, but I think that approach really feels shaming and blaming of a lot of people, and particularly women and people of all genders who are attracted to alternative medicine for various reasons, oftentimes because they feel just marginalized and unserved by the conventional healthcare system, which is also very male dominated and comes from that "how could you" vibe in a lot of ways. So there are these male voices in that space critiquing RFK Jr., pushing back on that stuff.
But there's so much weight stigma built into that, as well, into those spaces. And a lot of the critique I see of RFK Jr. Is like, well, he's right about childhood obesity, but he's just wrong about the approach. There's really not a critique, especially from male voices, that comes from the place of like, we also have to talk about the underlying weight stigma, right?
Virginia Sole-Smith: Yeah, and it's not just the MAHA MAGA guys. It's Cory Booker, it's Bernie Sanders. It's people who I otherwise really respect and align with than getting fixated on that piece. There's more dots that need to be connected there. And I think it also speaks to how people still conceive of fat liberation as primarily a body image thing and not as a political movement. And they don't understand that this is a component of social justice work. There's a lot still more on like, "Well, it's just how you personally feel about your body." And so that's the needle we have to keep trying to move.
Christy Harrison: I'm also thinking about how the political horseshoe has just become a circle these days, right? Where there's such a pipeline from what used to be kind of radical, lefty, crunchy spaces into this new MAHA MAGA right wing space. There's alliance forming. And I wrote recently about how Marion Nestle, who identifies as very far left, has not vocally critiqued RFK Jr. really, for whatever reasons and how problematic that is. There are these alignments happening with even prominent academic type voices in those spaces.
The social justice arguments maybe could work, maybe historically, I don't know, on the lefty crunchy type people. I don't know if in this new realigned world if that holds as much water because I feel like there's also a lot of critiquing, and for me personally, I have pulled back a little bit from so much stridency around the social justice aspect of this, in part because I feel like it hasn't been effective at bridging the divide or I'm just more concerned these days, I guess. I think everybody plays different roles, but I think my role is more of a calm, more centered kind of centrist maybe kind of person who can try to help bridge those divides with science.
I think just in terms of rhetorically and strategically, I think there is room for certainly more emphasis on the social justice aspects of this for people who resonate with that and who would be swayed by that. But I also am like, who is that alienating actually? Or who's not going to resonate with that? And how do we reach them? Or are they reachable? There's just never a way to bring back the people who have gone full MAGA or MAHA, even though 10 years ago they might have been aligned with what we're talking about now.
Virginia Sole-Smith: Yep, yep. That all resonates. And I think I'm struggling with which ways to go with the discourse. I relate to that.
Christy Harrison: The Internet is so vast. Many people have said this better than I have, it really flattens the discourse so that something that's meant for one audience can make its way to another totally different audience and be completely misconstrued and used to radicalize people or turn people away from an argument that might otherwise be relevant to them. It's so complicated trying to have these conversations online, too.
Virginia Sole-Smith: Oh, my God, yes. It is so complicated.
Christy Harrison: Yeah. Well, related to that, you've written and spoken about some of the nasty comments that you've gotten and the responses to the book that have been really negative and calling you anti-fat slurs or really denigrating your approach. What do you say to those critics? Or how have you navigated that kind of criticism? I think there's general diet culture criticism of anything that approaches fat liberation. This reflexive, like, ugh, how could you possibly? This is abusive. Or you're killing people, right? I've gotten these critic criticisms as well.
Virginia Sole-Smith: Yeah. Like the threats to call CPS because I feed my children goldfish crackers.
Christy Harrison: Oh, my God.
Virginia Sole-Smith: I really hope they have more important things to do.
Christy Harrison: I really hope so. Oh, my God.
Virginia Sole-Smith: I mean, the experience that I have online is both, there are times where I feel quite vulnerable because I get a lot of personal attacks and really aggressive, violent messaging. And I'm also very aware of how much privilege I have insulating me. For example, the goldfish cracker thing, that came from a New York Times profile where they included a photo of my snack drawer for my kids, which does usually include goldfish and Cheez-Its and a bunch of other foods that they like or don't even bother to eat because they loved it three weeks ago and now they're over it, the way kids are. So that photo of my snack cabinet created a whole thing.
Christy Harrison: Wait, the lids were a thing?
Virginia Sole-Smith: Yeah. People were like, why weren't the lids on? And I was like, because if they left the lids on, you wouldn't be able to see what the food was.
Christy Harrison: Oh, my God.
Virginia Sole-Smith: I don't have open containers of crackers sitting in my house. Like, what? I'm terrified of mice. Of course not. But I was very aware because people were so angry and calling me a horrible mother and, like, CPS should take her kids away. And if I was a black mom who'd had those photos posted, someone probably would have called CPS. I was aware that I was getting a tip of the iceberg of that kind of abuse because I still have nice white lady privilege and all that. So that's what I try to keep in mind when I'm navigating those storms.
The other thing about those storms is they blow up really big for two weeks. And it is not great. Your nervous system is on high alert in those two weeks. It's very stressful. After that piece came out, I got recognized walking my dog down my street. And I live in the woods, not a neighborhood with foot traffic. And someone stopped their car to talk to me. It was very unnerving and they were friendly.
Christy Harrison: What if they hadn't been?
Virginia Sole-Smith: Yeah, yeah. And when you're dealing with all that online, to then suddenly have it in person is unsettling. So it's really rough in those two weeks, and then it goes away. And what I try to keep in mind is usually, I don't know if we can say this every time, but most of the time, when there's the big backlash, it also means the net is still positive. I'm still netting more people entering into the conversation in good faith and suddenly finding this useful and being introduced to these conversations. And I do think because fat liberation is a movement built by folks with many more marginalizations than me, my role as a small, fat white lady is to be like the door opener and then, like, come on in and go do the real work. And so I can serve as that bridge. So that is my role.
And that does mean that, hopefully I am the front line for some of the negative attacks too, and other folks aren't experiencing some of that. So I don't know if it always plays out that way, but that would be my hope, let me take some of those hits. I try to keep that perspective in mind. I mean, some of it is just laughable. The comments, again, from the shirtless bros on TikTok, okay, dude, with your supplement line, you say what you want to say, it's fine. We're just not having the same conversation. We're not going to get him back. We never had him. It's fine. So those I can laugh at.
It wasn't great to have my parenting put under the microscope. Not because I actually take any of that seriously. I feel very confident in my parenting, but it was really indicative to me of how anti-fatness and misogyny are woven together and how uncomfortable so many people are with a mother making choices that don't perfectly adhere to our very, very rigid ideals about what is a good mom. And the fact that that definition of being a good mom is actually very exploitative of women and demands ridiculous amounts of labor that we shouldn't be asked to put in and isn't necessary for the health and well being of our kids. And so the fact that I represent a different perspective where I'm like, yes, I buy processed snack foods so that I can pack lunch and have my day run smoothly. And I don't see that as a failing.
Christy Harrison: Which is true of millions of people. And I also think there's classism here too, right? That you're expected to do something different because of your social location or the expectations of other people viewing you and where their social location is versus millions of working class and poor people and middle and upper middle class people as well, who are just like, no, processed foods help me survive. Processed foods help me get by. I mean, me too, right? I could not feed my child, I could not run my day if we didn't have processed foods and snacks around.
Virginia Sole-Smith: It's fascinating how that's something relatively small. And I think, again, you're saying for millions of people, that's just how we eat and how we live our lives. And yet it is so destabilizing to see someone unapologetically doing it on a public stage. It's really interesting.
Christy Harrison: Because you're supposed to apologize for it if you do it.
Virginia Sole-Smith: Right. Like, oh, my God, I can't believe we're at the park and I only brought Goldfish. And it's like, of course I only bought Goldfish. I'm not gonna waste $9 on blueberries that are gonna get too warm in the sun and not get eaten.
Christy Harrison: Right, exactly.
Virginia Sole-Smith: The number of strawberries my children reject because they're not perfectly symmetrical or a little squishy. I mean, we still buy strawberries. I feed them fruit.
Christy Harrison: Yeah, but it's not something you can just bring to the park on a whim. Right?
Virginia Sole-Smith: I'm not gonna waste it. I'm gonna bring the the granola bars and the Chips-Ahoy that I know they're gonna actually eat and not reject.
Christy Harrison: It reminds me of the conversation around formula versus breast and fed is best, right? I think of fed as best all the time. Even though my child is three, I'm just like, that's the goal here. That's what we care about. She also seems to have some hypoglycemia issue now. And so it's actually very important to make sure. But I mean, for every child, it's important to make sure that they're fed. But I've been thinking about it even more lately because of the hypoglycemia. That is really the bottom line and the necessity is how can I make sure that she eats and gets enough to sustain herself and doesn't go into a hypoglycemic meltdown?
Virginia Sole-Smith: Yeah, absolutely. My oldest child is almost 12, and I still think that is best, like three times a week. There's just so much, now in middle school, with every after school activity. She had play rehearsals till late all last week. And we come home and eat like two frozen burritos and a plate of pancakes. And it was like, yeah, you're starving. And I sent food but you've been going all day and fed is best. Eat whatever's helpful right now.
Christy Harrison: And yeah, it is so interesting how people feel the need to apologize for that or feel like I'm such a bad mom because I let her do that or whatever. And to just be unapologetic about that and to be matter of fact about it, like, of course she's hungry. This is just the schedule and the fact that she wasn't able to eat during this whole time or whatever. I sent food. She didn't want it. She wanted this instead. Whatever, it's okay.
So you've also gotten a lot of really positive feedback about the book, obviously. And we talked about that a little bit earlier, the onslaught of really great messages and just how incredible that feels when you know that you've touched someone's life or helped in some way. Is there any feedback you've gotten about the book that's been particularly moving or moved the needle in some way? Like a way that you've seen it used to make change in the world that has been really exciting for you.
Virginia Sole-Smith: Yeah, I mean, so we talked about the gym teacher with the bagel comment, he obviously has not read the book yet. Hold no hope. But on the flip side, in my first book event for Fat Talk, the launch event, there was a whole row of health teachers who had come that filled me up with so much hope that they had all come to hear and were reading the book and sharing it with colleagues. And that has consistently happened. And when I did the paperback tour earlier this year, same thing at both events, there were a couple of health teachers. And doctors too, it gives me a lot of hope when doctors are engaging with us. But something about teachers getting it just because they're going to be such a key part of how kids are learning and grasping all this material. So that makes me just feel like, okay, we're doing something right. Word's getting out to the teachers. That's super exciting.
And I was actually asked to consult on the Be Real nutrition curriculum, which just came out. It's a weight inclusive nutrition curriculum for middle school and high school. And it was really exciting to be a part of that. And there's lots of great folks who are far more brilliant than me who consulted on it, dietitians and activists and all sorts of people. But the fact that my work was a tool that they referenced as they were developing a curriculum for kids that covers these concepts in a weight inclusive way and that they really wanted me to go over it with a fine tooth comb and point out any instances where they could be veering into bias. That kind of thing is really encouraging. So I think that's been the big one.
I guess the other really moving stuff is when I hear from like a 12 year old or a 17 year old who's read the book and tells me that it's helping them because those ages are so vulnerable for this stuff. The vast majority of interviews I do, and I know you've had this experience too, when people talk about when it took the hard wrong turn for them on body stuff is usually like age 10, age 14, age 18, those vulnerable ages. And so hearing from kids, finding the work at that age is like, okay, that's great.
Christy Harrison: That is huge. So how young do you think we should start talking to kids about body size and acceptance? And what do you think is the right age to read Fat Talk with your kids or have them read it?
Virginia Sole-Smith: Well, this is a little bit of a spoiler, but I am working on a young adult version soon, hopefully. Not totally ready to announce, but there is work on that. So there will hopefully be a version for kids to read on their own at some point. TBD stay tuned. But in terms of us talking to our kids, it's never too early. I mean your kid is three, I'm sure you're already doing it. As soon as you start talking about body parts with kids, when they're babies and you're naming body parts, name bellies, name butts. Don't be afraid of the bigger parts or those kinds of things. Use the word "fat" in a neutral way.
It's been pretty remarkable. Obviously my own children are just a sample size of two. But because I did make a really conscious effort to do this their whole lives, it's very interesting to see them encounter the bias. They understand the bias exists. They report back comments that a friend said or teacher said or whatever, but it's not penetrating for them in the way that it penetrated for me. They're just kind of like, oh my God, can you believe they said that? That's weird. And then they just move on. And I can't say for sure it'll always be that way or that would be true for everybody.
From a research perspective, I think we're still studying what strategies really do work to reduce anti-fat bias. There is some research showing that it's not as straightforward, not that eradicating racism is straightforward, but there's research into like how to do anti-racist work and we don't have the same research tested approach to what do we do about anti fatness. We're still getting that data, but I think as a mom and as a journalist working on this, having frank open conversations where bodies are not a taboo topic just makes sense to me.
It feels similar to how I talk about genitalia in a very matter of fact way because we know that when kids know the accurate names for body parts, all of that is protective and hopefully building towards like a sex positive approach. And I think of it as very similar. I just want to normalize that bodies come in different sizes, that there's no need to feel shame around any body size, that all bodies are good. Very fundamental things. You can have that conversation very early.
Where it gets trickier is when they start interacting with anti-fatness in the world, which will happen quite early. Like kids cartoons often has a lot of anti-fatness. And so then that creates all these opportunities where for better or for worse, you're going to find yourself saying what did you think of Ursula the sea witch when we watched the Little Mermaid the other week? And one of my kids is just a passionate Ursula fan. She has like a completely different take on the whole movie. Ursula is a wronged woman whose kingdom was stolen from her. She's totally down for Ursula. That's really fun to explore with kids because kids are so smart and creative and you'll help them just by being curious and asking questions. You'll see them take it in all these different directions.
Christy Harrison: I love it. You wrote a piece recently about weighing yourself for the first time in many years and how that didn't go so well. Can you share a little bit about that? What was that experience like? What motivated it and what did you learn?
Virginia Sole-Smith: Yeah, so it was such a whim. It's so funny. I'm still like, why did I do it?
